Harsh Training.

Subject: Re: Harsh Training. Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:46 pm

I have never said it did .. show me where I intimate that what you wear has ANY influence on effectiveness...

Because I have concentrated much more on the 'non traditional aspects' doesnt mean I have EVER said any other arts are less effective (or more so)..

The Gi, is based on traditional Okinawan Peasant clothing, the Hakama on middle class and upper class traditional Japanese clothing.... the various types of training clothes wore by the Chinese, (more so the 'frog button coats and loose trousers) is based on traditional chinese clothing.. so what?

some Indian arts such as Kalari Pyat is taught only in a loin cloth, as do some very traditional Filipino ones ..etc etc..

I have NO qualms with that.... never have had.

However, given that for example the Fire Brigade will 'train' in breathing apparatus, that Fencers will train in THEIR specific clothing, boxers in theirs and so on, ... modern day westerners wear 21st century clothing in their daily life... and given that the 'manner and method' I teach is based around that I feel its best when teaching those people who DO NOT wish to follow years of hard training 3 times a week in a tradtionally run art, but ADAPT it to their usual garb.

I believe for example that Traffic Wardens, Police, Nurses on duty, shop assistants et al, should train and practise in the clothing they would most likely be wearing if and when attacked.

Its an ADAPTION not a crticism.. never has been.

However, even the great can slip up slightly .. I also remember at Doncaster seeing Mike Gould catch hs foot in his hakama twice.. no big deal per se ... he laughed it off.. fair do's.. but he wouldnt have caught hs foot in it on thestreet because he wouldnt have been wearing it!

Dave, you seem to be slightly misinterpreting my comments and attributing to me inferences or beliefs that I have NEVER said or wrote.

Given that these days I no longer run a martial arts club in a traditional manner does not mean I decry my past or faullt its effectiveness.. I always state the best stuff I have even seen was John Warfields..

However for the approach I feel is best for 21st century UK, and especially for the types of people who come to me, a great deal of my methods are aimed at a modern approach.. 17th century japanese clothing is not necessary, nor is the Rei etc...

I have merely (and it IS only merely) used MY INTERPRETATIONS, ADAPTATIONS. and ROOT-ARTS/STYLES whatever to follow my own chosen path.. if that is so wrong I am disappointed.

YOU chose your path and have been very successful at it..

did they guys at Hereford wear Hakama or Gi.. I doubt that too..

Mike 'adapted' the manner in which he did his traditional 'art' for their specific needs... I am doing no different and certainly don't propogate that just because an art IS traditional it's no longer effective.. show me ANYWHERE in the last 18 years since I left the Goshinkwai where I have said or intimated that.

When I resigned from the Goshinkwai I explained my reasons to John and to Gordon, via a letter to Gordon (as an 'official' resignation) and a (long) phone call to John... in that converstaion he advised me to follow the path I wanted to and wished me well and UNDERSTOOD my reasons, although he never once said he either agreed or disagreed with them..merely wished me well.

Because I follow a different path and teach methods in a different manner doesnt make ME right and Mike wrong or vice versa.. we are doing different ways.

My roots are Goshinkwai, the best stuff I have ever been taught or seen is Goshinkwai, and because of 'politics' and respect, I dropped the use of a term using the name Goshnkwai..

However you are looking at my comments as if I no longer have any respect or fondness for those days.. not true..

One comment I recieved from someone on the Doncaster Course probably summed it up well from my perspective..

"Given what you teach these days Dave, I can certainly see why you did Goshinkwai and I can also see why you no longer do so"

Am I so wrong (given that I had John's blessing to use the term Goshinkwai Combat when I first left, and his best wishes in following my own ideas) to say so.

The Goshinkwai is at the roots of the methods I teach, 'SDF Self-Defence' is the name I give to the methods.. thats all.. so YES I personally disagree with the more traditional aspects of many martial arts not just the Goshinkwai Yawara Ryu.. thats my riight as it is yours and Mikes and Jeffs to continue to follow those ideals.

If someone starts in traditional karate for example, then goes on to kickboxing and becomes a champ at that.. do they totally decry their origins.. rarely.. they have merely decided to follow another path...so be it

to close once again.. in your last sentence .. you seem to have placed an emphasis on something I have never said.. I dont personally like nor follow that traditional path, but nor do I decry its effectiveness either mate...

I dont have a PROBLEM with 'traditional manner', I just dont follow that path nor do I feel its necessary for the vast amount of people who simply want to learn some methods to make them more confident if they have to face an encounter in 21st century UK.
That last sentence of yours shows the real crux of your feelings about what I have written, yet I have never said it being traditional lessens effectiveness, unless someone was daft enough to wear full japanese samurai armour as a swimming coach (given that the samurai had to learn to swim in armour BECAUSE THEY WORE IT)

Its my CHOICE .... and when people ask my opinion I give it as honestly as I can thats all...

Remember during WW2 all the ju-jutsu clubs stopped using Japanese terms to teach their arts due to the obvious anti japanese feelings.. Unarmed Combat.. Defendo .. Defendu ... close quarter combat and so on.. it was simply a 'rose by any other name'... it didnt alter their techniques, merely their training methods...

You and I have the same roots, but different branches mate.. I follow my chosen path you yours.. is that so wrong, escpecially when I have never criticised the actual techniques of the Goshinkwai, and I sure as hell dont know all of them, only what I was fortunate enough to have been taught in MY time with them..

I still have massive respect for your's Mike's Jeff's abilities and skills, but I dont follow the Gi/Hakama Japanese path..

take care

Joined : 02 Apr 2008 Posts : 4

Firstly dave I never said you had said it and i never said you intimated it however in your reply you did just that
“I also remember at Doncaster seeing Mike Gould catch his foot in his hakama twice.. no big deal per se ... he laughed it off.. fair do's.. but he wouldnt have caught his foot in it on the street because he wouldnt have been wearing it!”

Dave irrespective of the fact the Gi is based on okinawan peasant clothing , it is today a modern training uniform, used in the training hall .
“ I believe for example that Traffic Wardens, Police, Nurses on duty, shop assistants et al, should train and practise in the clothing they would most likely be wearing if and when attacked.”
Having witnessed some of your courses I don’t recall seeing people dress in their civvies or work clothes. I for one would have noticed a nurse in uniform!! Although I would not assume that you do not run courses specific to individual needs
As I stated the Hakama is used for formal occasions not for everyday training. The crux of my post was to correct an assumption you made regarding Mike and his reforming the Goshinkwai. Not to discuss the merits of historical clothing, John had his reasons for teaching the way he did and I for one have not found it to be a hindrance
As say You followed your own path after l followed the teachings of John and remain committed to carry on his teaching after all dilution is the ruin of any system

Subject: Re: Harsh Training. Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:21 pm

Cant argue with your answer Dave.. and YES you didnt see any nurses on the couple of courses you came to where I was teaching..(I think I would have noticed as well) However I believe in 'when in Rome'.. its a form of respect.. If someone books me for a seminar and say their club wear Gi, and would I .. I would.

And you are correct ... when teaching Tram Conductors in Sheffield we use their uniforms and in fact a broken Tram coach to train in, also I HAVE done courses at Hallamshire hospital where the security staff and nurses wore their 'uniforms'...(not each others I rush to mention)

The Gi may well be a 'modern training uniform' but even those have been adapted.. many have elasticated waist bands.. some have velcro etc

I wish you MIke and Jeff all my genuine best in following the Goshinkwai Yawara Ryu way of practising.. you are certainly in with an eliite group there.

Also given that I no longer claim any grades IN Goshinkwai Yawara (out of respect), nor do I teach the syllabi of the Goshinkwai Yawara, I can hardly have diluted it in order to 'ruin it'.. I just use what I DID get as a root art.
It's not much different really to someone who has 3 separate 1st dans in 3 seperate arts, combining them to formulate his or her own methods

If I remember correctly, and I'm sure you'll tell me if I am wrong.. but as far as I know you have only really studied firstly under me (Until you reached 1st Dan then moved away) then mainly with John Warfield/Gordon and now Mike Gould
You would use your experiences and training if you ever emigrated to USA as the ROOT for your own interpretations..

I have merely done just that.. used the methods I learned BEFORE training with the Goshinkwai then whatever I studied AFTER the Goshinkwai as the basis for my own formulations... No 'dilution' is possible because I am NOT claiming anything other than an EX 4th Dan in the system.. changing maybe.. adapting definitely.. ruination difficult as it would ony be ruined if I pretended that my meagre knowledge of the Goshinkwai was the WHOLE knowledge, thus not being able to offer it all..

I had one student who reached 2nd Dan then emigrated .. If he set up a school teaching 'my methods' he wouldnt be teaching the whole system.. he would be teaching to the level he reached..

I state openly & honestly that I still believe the Goshinkwai Yawara to be the supreme art of personal combat... and that Mike Gould is probably the finest exponent since John Warfield
And I also always state that however little I learned at the feet of John & Gordon Warfield, I am an EX 4th Dan with that body.. and I use what I managed to glean & remember as the BASIS of what I have used as MY interpretation of whatever I have learned from whatever sources to formulate the SDF methods.

You are much nearer the source of TRUE Goshinkwai than I have been for 18 years... I can only use what I learned in the 70's and 80's as a root source for my own methods..

In some ways I envy you still being part of that set up.. however my chosen path doesnt see PURE Goshinkwai as where I am going ... is that so wrong.

Thanks for your input in this, and please continue to put me right if you think I mention any misconceptions...

The written word can sometimes lends itself to misinterpretations

take care mate

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

Hi all,

Not to step into an ongoing discussion here but I just wanted to say welcome Dave. Great to have you here and I hope you can stick around, there is always interest in the Goshinkwai and the training methods of the Warfields.

all the best
Chris

Joined : 02 Apr 2008 Posts : 4

Hi dave we've known each other for a long time and I think we understand were we are both coming from, as you say you've never found anything better me niether, and sad as it is John is no longer with us. myself, Mike and Jeff feel we owe it to john to continue the Goshinkwai as taught by him .I'm sure our paths will cross in the futur mate and I wish you well

thanks for the welcome chris if your ever in my neck of the woods drop in for a session

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

Thanks Dave,

That's a very kind offer, one I'll definitely take you up on.

Do you have any plans for another round of seminars and training sessions, we could definitely try and help get the word out.

all the best
Chris