Old School Training and Arts

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Dave, I am sure no one is as qualified to advise on these topics as you so here goes..

I have come across a few things lately which have really piqued my interest in old style pugilism (which I believe means 'bareknuckle') and the strongman training of people like Sandow.

As to Pugilism - can you give me a run down of what range of techniques was used as I understand they allowed elbows, hammerfists, butting, etc?

How effective a street art would pugilism be today compared to oriental stuff, for example?

After much umming and aahing over the past couple of years I am really getting to like kettlebell training and the older fashioned ways of strongman training rather than modern bodybuilding. Do you happen to know what routine Sandow, for example, actually used to build his physique and strength?
I've researched his books but they seem rather scant on what type of hard training he must have done.

Cheers for any knowledge on this.

Subject: Re: Old School Training and Arts Tue May 13, 2008 11:47 pm

Hi Dave

well I am more than happy to write what Iknow about this, but it might have to come in chapters.. theres SO much about these old timers I could write. In fact you have touched on my favourite subject .. the histories of personal combat and strength training.

OK .. Pugilism .. the word comes from PAG which was brought over by the Romans .. Pag became Pug .. both originally meant 'fist'.... so yes pugilsim was the art of the fist .. shades of Chuan fa eh? .. but this is Western Fist Art.

There were actually 3 distinct styles and sets of rules from the period of the 18th century to the 19th century.... pugilism differed from bare Knuckle, which also differed from 'Prize Ring', which also differed slightly from the 'Broughton Rules' .. named after Jack Broughton, first a champ then an organiser.

Techniques allowed were .. Both buttock throws .. elbows, knees, pivot blows, trips, punches, fore arms .. chanceries .. etc. the main rules were more in what was NOT allowed.. basically gouging and biting..

the move now known as the Left Jab didnt exist back then until the popularity of the 'First Blood' bet. The young aristocracy of the day were known as either The Blood or the Fancy .. these were the Chavs of their time.. rich young men with lots of money... because some fights could last a couple of hours there were side bets introduced, one being which fighter drew 'first blood'.. the orginal straight left was a long hard stepping punch with lots of power behind it, knocked people over, but didnt draw blood.. so the snapping retreating jab was devised, this was NOT for point scoring a sit is now, it was simply to draw blood and win a bit extra cash.

I rate pugilism as far superior to many oriental methods, in fact I once stated that if someone was skilled in Pugilism, Purring and Shillelagh, then they would have a BRITISH combat art equal to and possibily superior to anything the East could produce .. add to that mixture some old Lancashire style Catch, and you would have a top art ..

A lot of people dont know that even though I have 3 separate 8th dans in various jitsu styles, I only use about 60% oriental methods in my SDF self-defence.. I rate them very highly indeed

the various champs had their own favourite techniques, some were excellent wrestlers and used throws trips holds etc as well as striking.. Tom Sayers had one of the best Buttock and Cross Buttock combinations in the Prize Ring.

James Figg (my personal favourite) was described by a newspaper of the day as being ;The Devil in and out of the ring.

he would fight with Pugilism, wrestling, cudgel, single stick in or out of the ring, as a publican he sorted out any trouble makers very easily.

training was a bit different to today and I am not sure about the efficiency of some of the methods .. others were obviously good.. running was always done.. just like road work today...
raw steak and stale ale was often used as a diet... potatoes were out because they felt starch slowed you down, but raw steak made you like a carnivor .. a hunter/predator.

most soaked their hands in a combination of sheep piss and alum after training.. and many used layers of blankets to sweat of excess weight, when weight catagories finally came in....

originally the round ended when one man touched the floor with knee or hand.. so you could wait 30 minutes for a knock down .. no bells.. or 30 seconds, which is why some fights went 60 plus rounds.

yes brutal styles, but the fighters were top notch street men, they had that necessary combination of being able to both dish it out AND take it...

many died young due to their injuries, but just as many lived to ripe old ages as well

I will come back in a day or so with the Sandow stuff mate, although I didnt rate Sandow as high as some of the others of the day.. he was premier league for sure, but not top of the league.. I rate quite a few more above Sandow.. but he should respected more for what his fame allowed him to do .. which was to introduce physical culture to the masses. thats was his lasting legacy.. he wasnt the best built, he wasnt the strongest and he wasnt the best wrestler .. but he couldnt half market himself, and he did massive good work for getting the general public interested in getting fitter and stronger

whew thats enough for now mate

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Thanks for that, Dave.

Fascinating stuff.

It's very interesting in what you say about the development of the jab. It seems if you know the reasons for it then it all makes sense and isn't some sort of 'sports' thing at all. No doubt you could say the same about oriental TMA too.
So would the old-style left jab be more like Dempsey's 'Jolt' then?

Interesting what you say about there being 3 different styles.
How did they punch exactly?
I've seen the odd bit on 'non-gloved' boxing which said the punch couldn't be thrown as it is now since the hands would never stand the punishment, therefore the fist stayed vertical and - to a degree - smashed along the face, for example, rather than penetrated into it. Is that true? Or just just of the left-lead hand?

I imagine they couldn't let fly with full force like modern boxers do with taped and gloved hands. So did they use the range of non-punching techniques to spread the work beyond the hands and thus save them?

I know what you say about there being a Western system to potentially go beyond the oriental. I am partly interested in this because it seems a shame that our history and heritage is being lost in preference to glamorous but less effective foreign imports.

Cheers for the info, Dave.

Looking forward to any more you may have.

Subject: Re: Old School Training and Arts Wed May 14, 2008 2:26 pm

more to come but not for at least 24 hours I am swamped busy.

ets question EVER regarding any martial arts technique..

ask WHY it was devised.. if the reason for its invention and use no longer exists then the technique is superfluous...

like the judo/ju-jutsu throw known as O Soto Gari .. now a reaping throw.. originally a KICK..look at it that way and it makes sense

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Glad to read it whenever you have time to post, Dave.

I assume you've read all about this stuff but here's an interesting article I found with some descriptions of pugilism in ancient Greece.

Pretty brutal and describes what I have seen called 'hammers':
http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Pugilism

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

I don't think we've ever spoken at length about this stuff Dave. Great question Dave C, I'm enjoying this one.

Subject: Re: Old School Training and Arts Thu May 15, 2008 10:26 am

I sense a long phone call coming in from Mr Wilson.. one of his usual headache inducing question sessions eh Chris Ha Ha Ha..

As for the styles of straight left..

one was what became the Jab
the other was the original and used a long step, came from the SIDE of the ribcage not high up, and was delivered with a long step and full body weight behind it

the other was the corkscrew ... as your VERTICAL fist makes contact you twist it one quarter turn inwards, to rip the skin ...

I cant say I agree fully that they couldnt hit hard for as long.. not the top boys anyway...they put plenty of power behind their punches and landed bare knuckle.. they simply conditioned the hands as best they could to take the impact and their minds to accept the impact.

any more questions about this subject please feel free guys, but I am going on to the 'old time' strongmen questions for now

should be two separate topics really..

Sandow was a wrestler as well as a strongman, although not world class at it.. his pyhsique eventually overtook his strength act, and he was known as 'The man who made a million dollars standing still'.. slight exageratiion as he moved between poses... he used to stand in a cabinet and he covered himself with very white talcum powder, unlike todays bodybuilders who tan as much as they can real or fake... he would hold a pose for 20 seconds or so then change to another.

he always exagerated his measurements, but it was the age of ridiculous claims..

He first gained fame by jumping the stage (very common way of issuing challenges back then) and beating a self-proclaimed worlds strongest man at his own feats.. known as Cyclops...

Sandow himself was beaten by Hercules McCann twice...

but lets not get away from the fact that he did an awful lot of good and was indeed very well built and very strong..

most of those music hall strongmen did two distinct routines for either strength or physique.. both methods have been superceded in recent times

the end product was a style of body look that is gone, and one I was and still am a great admirer of...

For strength they did lots of singles .. starting with 60% of their best weight and simply doing a single putting it down and repeating instantly.. maybe 8 full singles.. sounds like reps but it wasnt as they often released the bars..

then they would come up in 10% and 5% increments until at 90-95%... the a couple of struggled singles and if their previous 'best' single went OK they would add some weight and try a new 'record'

for physique, Sandow and a few others used one methods and the rest used different methods..

in the main Sandow used slow reps with light weights, but well worked the muscles.. he didnt really go heavy at all for muscle development.others used one adaptation or another of the 'double rep' style.

take a weight that you could use for say EIGHT reps, keep training until eventually you could get 16 reps (double) then add weight back to 8 again.. but only ONE set, but several exercises for each muscle group

bench press was unheard opf which is why they didnt have 'tits'.. most exercises were done in an upright posture, whch worked the loin muscles very well.. I did a year of Bent Press and Side Press in the 60's and my obliques hurt like crazy every session.

frequency was either every alternate day or 3 times a week. Length oof sessions were rarely over an hour

a lot of one arm stuff was used by all of that era..

names now gone like Hackenshmidt, (my fave) ... The Mighty Atom (Joseph Greenstein) ... Otto Arco, The Saxons (REAL strong men) Apollon.. enormous forearms . 17 inches!
Joe Nordquest, Rolandow, Milo Brinn (who used to balance a cannon on his chin and fire it!).. and countless others.. all exellent.

The Mighty Louis Cyr, probably the strongest man of all time.. great times

It was a rare privelage for me to talk to George Hackenshmidt in 1967/68.. he died in 1968 just shy of his 90th birthday

more to come just keep asking

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Top stuff, Dave.

On Sandow - from what you say it seems he trained in the same that way Pavel Tsatsouline details in his book 'Power to the People' which appears to be based on the old-time strongmen training.

From what you say of Sandow's training then it would appear - going by what Pavel says - that he would putting in a maximum flex (even with the light weight) and doing it slowly to build strength by training the nervous system rather than the muscle, as such.

I do really prefer his sort of physique which I believe he modelled on the ancient Greek ideal from statues. It's the sort of look even a chunky lad like me can aspire too!

I would guess - though he was the 'father of bodybuilding' - he was actually training more for strongman contests which were the focus of the time and thus building strength rather than bulk - with some bulk as a byproduct. Nowadays the emphasis seems the opposite way around with bulk being the aim and strength as a byproduct.

Any of that make sense, Dave?

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Here's a site I found which you may like, Dave..

http://workout-routines.blogspot.com/2007/05/old-time-strength-george-hackenschmidt.html

Subject: Re: Old School Training and Arts Thu May 15, 2008 4:33 pm

makes perfect sense mate .. I have a copy of Hacks book the Way to Live.. some great advice there

decent site that by the way.. but the only thing they got wrong was Hacks age.. he was 89 and 7 months when he died, but near as d**n it to 90 I suppose..

he was a lovely man to talk to, I just wish that at 18-19 years old I could have valued the meetings more.. I met him twice... very kind gentle man and a gentleman.

Herma Goerner was very strong but didnt do well on stage he was so boring, people fell asleep.. he just lifted things.. no real act..

Sandow died young, just 58 (or 57 accordng to some reports).. buthe had suffered as child with childhood diseases, trouble is (like Bruce Lee in a way) dying so young allowed speculations that ALL strongmen died young.. most lived to ripe old ages, but the urban myth was born and wouldnt go away

the great thing about Hack was that he was really a wrestler and most his records were set when he was 19 or 20 years old.. he became much stronger as he reached his 30's. but didnt test himself then..

he told me in 1967 he could still do 10 reps on the floor press with 250 lbs... terrific at that age..

when he shook hands with me I thought a grizzly bear had bit my fingers...

thanks again guys

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Here's one for you, Dave..

http://www.oldtimestrongman.com/blog/labels/Bert%20Assirati.html

What stories do you have on this guy???

Subject: Re: Old School Training and Arts Fri May 16, 2008 11:35 pm

Well plenty on Bert

I met him in Islington many years ago .. he was 88 and nearly blind ..
Still very powerful though.

He started off as an acrobat in a duo called Mello and Nello, and when he started the weights and wrestling he just got bigger and stronger

He could do one legged squats with 200lbs on his shoulders

he had 7000 bouts in 35 years.. losing only a handful..

I once told Geoff Thompson two stories about Bert which he loved...

first one was when he was arrested for brawling .. he had been attacked by a few Royal Marine Commandos outside a hall where he had been wrestling.. they were drunk and had shouted that the bouts were fake and fixed.. one thing led to another and they attacked Bert.. he demolished them so they took him to Court, even though he was on his own and they were several,

In court one Marine was all bandaged up and the Judge asked "Good Grief Mr Assirati .. what did you hit him with?"..

"His mate your Honour"

Bert had grabbed one marine and used him as a weapon swinging him around and battering the others with him .. case dismissed.

the second story happended after Bert had finally retired from athe ring, he was about 60 then
He had become a 'mobile truble shooter' .. he had a Daimler car with a phone in it and clubs around South London would phone him if things got rough
One your new manager, a relief manager, didnt know Bert, just had the phone number.. a mass brawl kicked off and he phoned the emergency brawl number (Bert)
Bert turns up, the manager runs to the car and says..
"MY God theres only one of you and there's a riot going on..
"How many riots are there?".. asks Bert
"Well ONE" says the manager
"Thats OK then" says Bert, (and gives a great quote)
"ONE MAN - ONE RIOT"
Then sorts it out.

he was probably the best of all British wrestlers of all time with only maybe Billy Robinson giving a chase for the title

Bert had toured the USA trying to get a crack at the world title from the then champ Jim Londos.. Londos never accepted any challenges from Bert
on hios detah bed someone asked Londos why he never let Bert challenge for the tite

"BECAUSE I SAW BERT WRESTLE" was his answer..

great old wrestler..

his cousin Joe Assirati was still instructing as a weight training coach when he was 90

tough guys from a tougher era

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Dave, I've been reading Edmund Price's 'Science of Self Defence' from 1867.

Did the 'first blood' type of jab precede this date?
Or is the type of left-hand 'jab' he describes the earlier one?

I am trying to get a handle on the original more powerful jab.

cheers

Subject: Re: Old School Training and Arts Mon May 19, 2008 4:15 am

First Blood was started in the mid 1800's.. my first research date is a fight in 1848, where the young Duke of Devonshire won 20 guineas because his backed fighter had drawn first blood.. I cannot say for certain if it was there any earlier, but my source.. a mag called BOXIANA (also a great book) felt it worth publishing, so maybe it was the first time.. but I wont swear to that...

By the way, the origin of the hard left was based on hitting with the Buckler (a small shield)...

certainly Pankration (or Pancration as its sometime spelt) did have a very powerful long left... and that was exported from Ancient Greece to Rome, were they stuck those deadly Caestus on gladiators fists..

presumably these styles were brought here during the Roman Invasion and either amalgamated with native UK methods or superceded them.. that I dont know.. I do know though that the Fist Fighting methods of the Middle Ages, did incorporate heavy straight punching as well as swinging punches.. but little references can be found to hooks and uppercuts...

the Book of Leinster mentions 'HARD HITTING WRESTLERS' from the County Palatine (Lancashire).. but no other details are given

hope that helps a bit Dave

Joined : 17 Aug 2007 Posts : 36

Interesting, Dave.

Does the old style hand position actually come from fighting with buckler and sword?

Do you think the old-school hard jab would be street-effective strike?