Targets

Subject: Re: Targets Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:42 pm

Hi Jeff,
I was a bit overzealous in my proclamation that Tyson could have been the best ever. I agree with you that a prime George Foreman and Larry Holmes would have beaten him. I disagree with you though on Jersey Joe Walcott. I think Tyson would have taken him out. Now a bout between a prime Tyson and a prime Marciano would've been an interesting one. I think that Marciano (who was among the most mentally strong fighters of all-time) would have somehow prevailed in a hard fought battle.

Now, since we've deviated from the topic so much, who do you think was the best ever heavyweight boxer? My pick is a prime 1964-1967 Muhammad Ali. I think the '64-'67 Ali would beat anyone from any era. As far as number two on down, well, it depends on my mood and recollections at the moment. Rolling Eyes

Right now, I'd say a young, prime Larry Holmes would be right up there. I think he would've have been appreciated more if he hadn't followed in Ali's footsteps. I think the prime Holmes had the best jab ever...

John, what are your thoughts on Tyson and his place in history?

Take Care,
Lito
_________________
The essence of true love is purposeful effort.

True happiness is attained through fidelity to a worthy purpose.

Winners take chances and perceive pressure as a privilege.

Whatever you believe, it's true.

Admin Joined : 13 Aug 2007 Posts : 177

Hmmmm....yeah...I'd have to agree Lito. A before the war Ali (Clay) was AWESOME.

He did everything wrong and it worked so right for him.
-Held his hands low
-Never went to the body
-Leaned away from punches

Of course he was able to do this because of his amazing attributes and as he aged he had to adopt different strategies (hence the rope a dope) not to mention he probably had one of the best chins in HW history.

As far as number two goes? Wow, way to close to call. Holmes is right up there as is Joe Louis and Jack Johnson.

I want to put Marciano in there because I absolutely LOVE the guy, but he is a great example of a fighter who came along at just the right time. Don't get me wrong, his work ethic and mental toughness was second to none, but his competition was lacking. The great fighters he did beat were well past there primes and still gave him a lot of trouble (Walcott, Charles, Moore. I won't mention the geriatric Louis he fought)

But make no mistake, the Brockton Blockbuster could BOMB. His one punch KO of Walcott (in their first fight) might be the greatest in the history of HW boxing.

I'll see if I can find a clip of the puch and post it. Be right back.

Jeff

Admin Joined : 13 Aug 2007 Posts : 177

Admin Joined : 13 Aug 2007 Posts : 177

Joined : 07 Nov 2007 Posts : 84

I'm not a real big Ali fan. He was essentially knocked out by Henry Cooper and it was only through Dundee's chicanery that Clay survived. I'd agree that he had a spectacular chin. One that he ended up relying on more and more as his career progressed. One only need watch the Frazier, Norton, and Shavers fights to understand how time could have been so cruel to Ali.
I think his prime was relatively short lived. I give him high marks for his undying will and his unwavering belief in himself. Unfortunately Ali was brash, arrogant, and mean spirited. He belittled Joe Louis and knocked Marciano's rug off every chance he got and his verbal berating of Frazier and Patterson was unmerciful.

This is the way I'd rank them.

1. Joe Louis, Mike Tyson... a two way tie for these two technically brilliant sluggers.
2. George Foreman...That 70's version, the one with hair.
3. Larry Holmes...Great jab, lousy personality.
4. Rocky Marciano... At 185, quite likely the greatest crusierweight for all eternity.
5. Jack Johnson...Gold teeth and white girls, Flava Flave's alter ego.

Admin Joined : 13 Aug 2007 Posts : 177

He was essentially knocked out by Henry Cooper and it was only through Dundee's chicanery that Clay survived.

Haha, I was waiting for someone to mention that.

Jack Johnson...Gold teeth and white girls, Flava Flave's alter ego.

LOL. Nice.

Shocked you put Tyson so high Rusty. Care to elaborate? Do you really feel he could have beat a prime Foreman or Holmes?

Joined : 07 Nov 2007 Posts : 84

I don't think he'd have gotten by Foreman, but I do think he'd have still landed that overhand right on Holmes. Cus had always felt that Holmes was susceptible to the overhand right and had told Tyson to throw it with bad intentions on his way in. They worked on it specifically for that fight. If you look back at Holmes career you'll see a recurring theme. Kevin Issac, Reynaldo Snipes, Earnie Shavers, and finally Mike Tyson all exploited the overhand right during their bouts.
No doubt Tyson's prime was brief, but in his prime I can only think of three guys that could have gotten by him.

1. George Foreman
2. Sonny Liston
3. Earnie Shavers

I won't make any excuses for Tyson's character. He made sure that everyone hated him. For that, he'll have to commiserate with Jake Lamotta. Never the less, during his prime Tyson was a technical genius and his impact on Boxing was profound.

Joined : 08 Apr 2008 Posts : 28 Location : Riverside ,CA

I have a hard time ranking Ali up in the top 5. He did have the greatest chin and will though. The fight with Forman was a joke. Forman fought with food poisoning and the ring was fixed to help Ali with his rope a dope. Besides Ali didn't ko him, Forman gassed out and pretty much fell down. Anyway my top heavys.
1. Joe Lewis
2. Tyson
3. Holmes
4. Forman
5. Dempsey (not really but he is one of my favorites)

Admin Joined : 13 Aug 2007 Posts : 177

Cus had always felt that Holmes was susceptible to the overhand right and had told Tyson to throw it with bad intentions on his way in. They worked on it specifically for that fight.

Uh...Cus had been dead 3 years by the time they fought. I assume you meant his other trainers?

Liston and SHAVERS (??) Liston I can maybe see because of his awesome jab and power, but Shavers? What do you feel he had other than a deadly right hand that would have stopped Tyson?

Joined : 07 Nov 2007 Posts : 84

Jeff.

You're right about Cus having assumed room tempature by that time. He did however stress the overhand right to Tyson during his march to the title. I either read this story in an old Ring or possibly heard it on ESPN's Ringside retrospective of Mike Tyson. I do recall they worked specifically on it because it was a fight they envisioned happening.

Earnie was not a one way street. His left hook was vicious, just ask Ron Lyle. I always thought Shavers would have been a champion, had he not come up during the golden age of Heavyweights. Earnie was all heart, not inclined to bottle out when he got his chance. And if there was ever a Heavyweight that could change the complexion of a fight with a single stroke from either hand, it was "The Acorn."
Anytime you've got a gunslinger with that kind of prodigious power that's prepared to go out on his shield... well, flip a coin.

Admin Joined : 13 Aug 2007 Posts : 177

Maybe I've just got a bit of a bad taste in my mouth because Tex Cobb beat him. But then again, a 2 x 4 over Cobb's head couldn't knock him down LOL

I must admit though, I never saw the Lyle fight with Shavers. In fact the only Shavers fights I saw were Holmes (when he dropped Holmes with that killer right) Ali, and the Cobb fight. Maybe I'll do some Youtube digging.

Now speaking of Lyle, I'm SURE you've seen Foreman's epic battle with him. Now THAT was the HW version of Hagler/Hearns!!!

Joined : 07 Nov 2007 Posts : 84

Yeah, Cobb got him. For that matter Lyle got him too. But they both had to walk through a minefield to do so. Frazier and Foreman both avoided him like the plague.
I've got that Foreman vs Lyle bout on VHS. What a classic that one was.

Subject: Re: Targets Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:42 pm

Hey Guys,
Let's continue our discussion of the TOP 5 heavyweight boxing champions over at the CHAT ROOM forum 'cause we've deviated so much from the topic of focus here.

I'll start the thread and see you there.

Take Care,
Lito
_________________
The essence of true love is purposeful effort.

True happiness is attained through fidelity to a worthy purpose.

Winners take chances and perceive pressure as a privilege.

Whatever you believe, it's true.