"Adrenaline Dump" myths

Joined : 23 Aug 2007 Posts : 43

Re: Fight or Flight response ("adrenaline dump"):

There is a lot of misinformation put out about this, partly by martial
artists trying to convince you why you MUST do what they say (i.e.
because you won't be able to do anything else).

As a general thing, be VERY wary about mentally limiting your own
capabilities based on what someone else says. To modify an old saying,
Don't measure yourself by someone else's shoddy standards!

Fact: The Fight or Flight response does NOT increase muscle tension.
It increases muscle TONUS, which is the pre-tensioning that prepares
your muscles to fire EXPLOSIVELY. Physiologically, FoF does NOT make
you "tight" or incapable of efficient (even LOOSE) movement. It DOES
make you more EXPLOSIVE (or able to go from maximum Yin to maximum
Yang instantly, and continue to change from there). Any tightening or
freezing up is purely PSYCHOLOGICAL, not physiological, hence should
be addressed by proper mindsetting and experience in training.

Fact: During FoF, large muscle groups become engorged with blood, and
small muscle groups (e.g. fingers) get less blood. That, along with
the increased muscle tonus (that can make you "jumpy") is what causes
the decrease in "fine motor skills" like threading needles and dialing
911. Your legs, along with the rest of your body, get stronger and
more explosive. (In one situation, where I was running under full FoF,
I probably set a world speed record--while easily jumping curbs and
avoiding obstacles, retaining my balance.) Especially if you have TRAINED during certain
levels of FoF arousal (not necessarily full), you can retain most or all of your normal
coordination for combat movement. The only thing that could possibly
"decrease" your balance would be the fact that your whole body is
firing more explosively than normal, and if you haven't trained in
this state, you could "overshoot" the limits of your balance, in
essence moving so quickly and powerfully that your balance cannot
"keep up." However, dropping and stomping completely take care of this
("absorbing the overtravel"), as does training in a FoF state so that
your subconscious can quickly learn how to coordinate things even at
this higher level of movement.

FoF does NOT disturb your balance, looseness, body unity, nor even
your sensitivity. Some have claimed something along the lines of,
"Under FoF, getting stabbed often feels like getting lightly punched.
If you can't even feel a stab, how can you say you have
sensitivity???" FACT: FoF decreases perception of PAIN. This process
happens exclusively in the brain (it involves endorphins), and
concerns only the perception of pain, NOT the sensory response to
pressure. The three major parts of sensitivity (proprioception,
external tactile and subcortical visual) are NOT affected by FoF
(except that vision becomes sharper and visual image processing speed
increases, which can only HELP).

FoF fully ENHANCES (rather than DECREASES) a practitioner's capabilities.
Assuming your combative practice relies on natural, subconsciously directed movement, which FoF physically enhances and psychologically does not affect (as long
as the conscious mind has been trained to not interfere through
cognitive escape, freezing or dissonance), the FoF on its own can do
nothing but help. Many practitioners
(including one just recently) have had the surprising experience of
FoF's suddenly facilitating their protection in a very dramatic way.

Any practitioner of a martial art that relies on consciously directed
unnatural movement (i.e. prescribed/memorized movement as opposed to
movement that springs forth from your own body) WILL be negatively
affected by FoF and its relationship with the conscious mind (i.e. FoF
is activated by the limbic system of the brain, which existed long
before the parts of the brain that enable self-consciousness, and
hence doesn't give half a darn about whatever the conscious mind has
to say). Cognitive dissonance will occur because of the conflict
between what the limbic system and conscious mind want the body to
do . . . and cognitive dissonance can lead to TIGHTNESS/FREEZING,
decreased coordination and balance, and all the horrible things
conventional martial artists warn the FoF will do to you!

Thoughts?

Subject: hi Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:07 am

Hi

So all the RBSD people who say FOF limits you are wrong?

What are your credentails to say that.

Also what about freeze?

there are 3 F' not 2

tc

T

Joined : 23 Aug 2007 Posts : 43

Not wrong about everything, but depending on whom you're talking about, possibly wrong about some things.

No credentials except some experience, observation and logic. And a desire to shake things up on this forum. Wink

The third F is I believe Dave Grossman's brainchild based on little if any actual science. (I think he later changed it to "Fight, Flight, Posture or Submit," which is cute but is mixing up humans and other animals, as well as physiological plus psychological phenomena, whereas the original FoF idea was purely physiological.) In some animals, whom freezing in place would hide from the motion-sensing vision of their most likely predators, freezing may be an adaptive option. It's not adaptive for humans and is not part of the physiological human FoF. As I explained above, freezing under stress is a psychologically-based problem, not a physiologically-based one. It results from cognitive dissonance. And that's easy to see: Lots of people talk about their knees shaking and an inability to stay perfectly still during FoF, even if they want to. That's because the human body under FoF WANTS to move (to flee or fight). If you force it to stay still (which may be necessary if you think things can be talked down but you can't escape), you may face some problems (e.g. difficulty talking as clearly and eloquently as you wish because talking is a fine motor skill, "burning off" the FoF's priming for action so that you enter the "crash" phase that comes after the FoF, leaving your body less prepared if things go physical right AFTER an extended negotiation).

One thing I actually forgot about in my first post that may be limiting if it happens to you: Tunnel Vision. But this can be accounted for in training (train your subcortical vision, and keep looking around!).

As I stated above, FoF becomes truly limiting rather than empowering only if you're training in methods that go against the FoF (e.g. that require conscious identification of physical movement to trigger unnatural movements in you, leading to cognitive dissonance and therefore freezing and maladaptive movement).

Again, just trying to spark some discussion. And I do feel that telling people how "bad" the FoF is sets up a possibly negative self-belief and a self-fullfilling prophesy (conscious mind goes, "OOH! Stress! I'm supposed to freeze up, loose my coordination, and generally perform way worse than in training!"). As long as what you're teaching makes sense physiologically, FoF will mostly enhance it.

Subject: hi Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:44 am

Hi,

NP with being a devils advocate. Smile

I'd still like to know what experience you have in real combat, as most of the people who talk about F+F have real life proven experience they base it on?

What is the real life fighting provable experience, you base your above observations on?

tc

T

Subject: Re: "Adrenaline Dump" myths Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:00 am

Hi Guys

I've got to say, I've trained with a few good people that have undeniably been there and done that, they have all added to my knowledge of fight or flight, they have explained to me various things that have happened to them in extreme situations but all have agreed on one point nothing is cast in stone, there is an unlimited range of external factors that can come into play in any given situation, no one has ever told me "you will not be able to do this", "you will feel like that".

You have to be careful when quoting anything as "FACT"
Once upon a time the greatest scientific minds on the planet said:-

Fact, the world is flat.
Fact, there is nothing smaller than an atom.

As for Dave Grossman, I like his work, I have heard other people deny his research in the past but I have yet to see anyone of them produce an equal amount of research of their own to convince me that he is wrong and they are right.

Alan

Subject: Re: "Adrenaline Dump" myths Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:54 pm

Hey Ari,
I can always count on you to stir things up... Wink

As Alan mentioned, nothing is cast in stone when it comes to "fight or flight." I've come across a broad spectrum of reactions to extreme situations, like being robbed, raped, etc, at work. I've seen it empower and disempower people in both psychological and physiological ways. Often times, when a crime victim is taken by complete surprise, the reaction elicited/reported is negative.

Whether or not the root basis of "freezing" is psychological and/or physiological, I have seen this phenomena occur in victims quite frequently. Here's one example: I handled an incident in which a father and son went home for lunch (they worked together) and as soon as they stepped through the front door of their condo they observed this guy burglarizing the father's master bedroom (which was straight ahead, in line with the front door). Anyway, as soon as the suspect sees the father and son, he immediately gets up and runs straight down the hallway, going right in between the two of them as he exits the front door (which was still open). Both father and son, told me they were in complete shock at the sight of this guy in their home and were "frozen" in place as the suspect ran right in between them. Neither father or son made/took any action whatsoever to stop the suspect as he ran out of their home. In fact, they didn't even give chase afterwards. They both just stayed in place and did nothing while the suspect got away. They were in their words, "shocked" and "frozen." They felt bad and ashamed of themselves for doing nothing to stop the suspect.

Anyway, Happy New Year everyone!

Take Care,
Lito
_________________
The essence of true love is purposeful effort.

True happiness is attained through fidelity to a worthy purpose.

Winners take chances and perceive pressure as a privilege.

Whatever you believe, it's true.

Subject: Re: "Adrenaline Dump" myths Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:00 am

Hi Lito

That's interesting, another story (I am going back about 25-30 years ago).

I was in a Argyle Arcade in Glasgow, which is a small shopping mall filled with jewellery shops when a man rushed out of one outlet and ran hell for leather up this narrow arcade (around 4 metres wide) one of the shop assistants appeared giving chase and shouting "stop him, he's a thief" but the people closest to them were so amazed they just stood there frozen and inactive, it took two lads who were much farther away to block his exit, these lads had more time to take in the scene and make a decision than those who were closest to the action.

I would surmise that most people when something occurs suddenly freeze while they process the information, a few on the other hand would simply react (shoot first ask questions later), the majority of the population never think of these scenarios they are focused on the task in hand or even just day dreaming their way through the usual routine, the mind and body are just not tuned in for such events, some people (the minority) will react in a positive manner, anyone trained in security work should react but also some sportsmen who train to react quickly to rapid changes around them may also react positively.

Of course there are always exceptions, people that you would not expect become heroes and those that you would expect to take action but dont.

Too many variables come into play, I would always say avoid absolutes.

Alan

Subject: hi Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:28 am

Hi

Freezing is very common if you dont know that, you aint been there.

You havent given your experience yet.

you make bold statements but have failed to back them up with experience.

Im not interested in theoretical warriors opinions.

tc

T

Joined : 23 Aug 2007 Posts : 43

a) Theo, glad you know me so well. No way am I posting all details of violent experiences on the Internet. Suffiice to say that my few SERIOUS incidents all involved weapons (knives, baseball bat) and/or multiple attackers (2-5/6, not sure exactly how many). The less serious ones were . . . less serious. You seem far more interested in me than in the topic at hand. Sorry, I'm happily married. . . .

b) An individual's reactions in any given incident are certainly not set in stone. However, science (as opposed to tough guys relating their own personal experiences) does tell us a few things about physiology. The facts I mentioned all had to do with that. FoF is a physiological phenomenon. Any psychological corollaries are separate (although closely related) issues. Most of us cannot really change the physiological FoF. However, we CAN do a lot to change the likely psychological corollaries. That's my point in all this.

c) I certainly never stated that no one will freeze. I DID say that freezing is a psychological phenomenon, NOT a physiological one. There is nothing inherent in the FoF itself that causes freezing. I've suggested that freezing is caused by cognitive dissonance or ignorance. If someone simply doesn't know what to do, OR if what s/he thinks s/he should do conflicts with other motivations or natural inclinations, freezing may occur. That's one reason why it's never happened to me. In every incident I've been in, I knew what to do, whether it was how to stand and talk something down, how/when to RUN, or how to instantly move to resolve things physically. No real analysis/consideration was necessary, as I was not starting from scratch. I had a frame of reference from training (even when the training was IMO not as good as it could have been).

IMO, we should be doing our best to empower SP students. Telling them how the FoF may make them freeze, "forget" everything they know, loose their sensitivity and coordination, etc. is not conducive to that. I'd say, tell them the physiological effects of the FoF so they won't be surprised (e.g. voiding the bladder, increased muscle tonus and jumpiness, shaking knees, sweating, tunnel vision), and tell them how the psychological corollaries are addressed in training. This, IMO, may lessen the probability of maladaptive self-fulfilling prophesies (e.g. he was told that he might freeze up, so he did). Or maybe not. Just an idea.

Then again, I don't have 20 years "on the door," so what do I know. . . . (As if 20 years on the door necessarily exposes you to everything a civilian may face. I almost GUARANTEE at least one of the serious situations I faced was never faced by any bouncer, at least while he was on duty.)

Subject: Re: "Adrenaline Dump" myths Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:21 am

Hi Theodore,
Please don't take what Ari writes personally/defensively. He really means well. He's posting on salient subjects and sharing his viewpoints to stimulate food for thought and interesting discussion. The info he's sharing has merit for consideration whether or not you agree with it.

So, instead of getting personal, please keep rebuttals to the subject at hand. Or, if you really don't have anything subject-mindedly constructive to say (for or against), then please just don't say anything. Thanks.

Hey Ari,
I can understand the basis for your reactions to Theodore's comments, but please discontinue going down the "defensive" road too. Please just keep your discourse on the topic at hand. Thanks pal.

Thanks too for posting on interesting subject matter and for sharing your viewpoints.

Once again guys, and to everyone reading this, keep your posts cool and constructive. Please keep on topic with no personal digs. Thank you.

Okay, enough said; let's move on...

Take Care,
Lito
_________________
The essence of true love is purposeful effort.

True happiness is attained through fidelity to a worthy purpose.

Winners take chances and perceive pressure as a privilege.

Whatever you believe, it's true.

Joined : 23 Aug 2007 Posts : 43

Sorry Lito, my bad. Won't happen again.

FWIW, I know that at least several very BTDT guys (law enforcement, bouncing, psych ward handling) agree with at least some of the ideas I'm putting forth. If they sound really off-base, maybe I'm not expressing them clearly.

1) FoF is a physiological phenomenon with readily identifiable physiological symptoms (not all present at any given time for all people).

2) These symptoms are largely adaptive and helpful.

3) You can't "train away" the FoF, unless your brain is seriously abnormal. You may be able to affect its threshold, but near-death experiences (including lethal attack) will elicit FoF for all normal (99%+) people.

4) Various psychological corollaries to the FoF often come up, particularly in untrained/poorly trained/generally unprepared people. These are usually maladaptive. However, proper mindsetting and training can obviate or at least minimize the odds of these.

5) So, let's not get the adaptive FoF and maladaptive psychological symptoms mixed up and paint a bleak picture for our students. Instead, why don't we emphasize how FoF will HELP them, and train them properly so that the psychological maladaptive symptoms are unlikely to appear?

I hope this is clearer.

Subject: Re: "Adrenaline Dump" myths Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:32 pm

Hey Guys,
On a related-tangent, there's a fourth "condition" that hasn't been addressed--submitting. At work, I've encountered many instances where a crime victim doesn't fight, flight, or freeze, but rather succumbs to a criminal's demands/threats/hostile actions by acquiescing, by complying. This "submit" reaction (or response if it's been proactively thought out in advance) is often a reasonable one to make especially when it comes to property crime situations (e.g. a robber has you at knife point and is demanding your wallet). Now, when a situation starts off as or escalates to the bodily harm/degradation realm, well, that's another matter where, in my opinion, you can proactively use a "submit" reaction to set up the tormentor for a ruthless surprise attack or as a conduit to create an opening to stun-and-run or just run to escape at a later, more opportune time.

On a broader note, it doesn't really matter to me whether the basis of these four reactions (i.e. fight, flight, freeze, or submit) are physiological and/or psychological in origin. For the self-protection minded individual, what matters is to acknowledge these reactive (or responsive if pre-planned) conditions, understand them in context, and use this knowledge to strategize/establish proactive plans of action to EMPOWER yourself in advance for a wide variety of possible hostile situations.

Here's an adage, a truism, everyone should heed--"Proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance." Or better yet, here's my modified "positive" version; "Proper planning and preparation produces powerful, proactive performance."

Anyway, take care and always be aware...

Best Regards,
Lito
_________________
The essence of true love is purposeful effort.

True happiness is attained through fidelity to a worthy purpose.

Winners take chances and perceive pressure as a privilege.

Whatever you believe, it's true.

Age : 52 Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 40 Location : England

Interesting one this -

As an ex-fireman it also involves the question of how do some survive while others perish in ANY dangerous situation. Simple answer, some freeze, others get busy. Studies of VC winners often comment on their mental state at the time. They are often spitting mad or indignant about whatever is happening around them, forget about the dangers and set about putting things right. Action being the key.

One of the biggest myths (in my opinion) in training is this notion that if you get mad you somehow lose your judgement and co-ordination and lose the fight. That might be true in sporting contests, but in a violent assault getting mad is often the thing that removes the brakes, focusses the mind and gets you moving. Trainers may disagree, but remember they are often selling a system so are perhaps biased towards looking at this from the perspective of a conditioned response. A woman defending her child can usually benefit from a large dose of fury (helps if there's a weapon handy as well - if she's mad, she'll use it)

One of my students recently showed me a training DVD of genuine CCTV footage. A fight breaks out and one guy gets dropped. His three mates stand there in a line gawping in disbelief while his attacker literally drops them BANG BANG BANG - all three one after the other with the same right cross. Someone else then runs across the road and drops the bad guy (yeh I know - sounds like a normal night in Loughborough)

Proof enough to me that the untrained often FREEZE as a response to danger / violent assault. Others get mad and get moving.

Train hard! Keep moving!!

GJEC

Joined : 07 Nov 2007 Posts : 84

I agree, rage knows no fear. In the ring, you are likely to have a battle plan that you've been working on for weeks. You study the tapes and have your sparring partners mimic your opponent's style. I can understand how a cold dispassionate approach would serve you well in this arena.
A streetfight on the other hand, is a bubbling cauldron of chaotic fury. In my mind, vehemence is the very wellspring of survival.

Joined : 08 Nov 2007 Posts : 10

Sorry if this is a bit off topic...

GJEChamberlain,

are you the same guy that used to have your own Q&A Forum at John Skillens old forum?

If so, I remember an excellent post about strength training and how to combine it with martial arts. I think it was something along these lines..

Monday: Martial arts
Tuesday: General strength
Wednesday: Off
Thursday: Martial arts
Friday: Explosive strength
Saturday: Endurance, bag work etc.
Sunday: Off

I would really like to read that post again if possible.

Cheers,

Kobayashi