Sport and Fighting

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

Hi all,

Just a quick story about sport, fighting and the relationship between the two.

One of the lads at Martin's university class recently competed in a UK University kickboxing competition in Cambridge.

Bearing in mind the fact that he has never kickboxed in his life and his training comes from the SDF I thought he'd go, have a good time, make up the numbers and have a laugh as part of his student experience. He's a game and tough scrapper so I knew he'd give a good account of himself.

Well he won the Heavyweight university kickboxing title. With NO kickboxing training. Very Happy

He even took out the president of the organisation on his way to the title. cheers

Proud.. I nearly bought the drinks.

I had a good chat with him last night and I found out that while he had no kickboxing experience what he did have was willingness, toughness and training in the judicious application of violence against his opponents. They simply couldn't live with his forward drive (and his limbs which are longer than an alaskan winter!)

I asked him what techniques he used to beat his opponents and he answered that by the last bout he was kicking them in the head because "He had been warned twice already for heavy contact and was scared he was going to be disqualified for knocking someone out!" Very Happy

I mean.. what kind of comp is it where they warn you for heavy contact! scratch

Anyway.. in amongst all the crowing and pride of the paragraphs above is a valid point I feel. There IS a huge difference between sporting application and fighting. This guy has no point of reference for sporting combat and when he applied a spiteful and violent mentality against his opponents they simply couldn't handle it. Strike another one up for the correct mental attributes being more important than the physical representation of that mindset.

Whole his opponents were trying to win the bout, he was trying to win the fight and take them out. A whole different approach which evidently made all the difference.

cheers all
Chris

Joined : 03 Sep 2007 Posts : 77

Fantastic Chris, just fantastic.

What a top man, he has clearly got that survival mindset.
I take my hat off to him for stepping into the arena in the first place, let alone wiping the floor with them all!

Paul

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

Best thing is that he's a really easy going and very nice person. He's just getting the right training from Martin's class.

I'd put any of the regulars from that group into a competition like that, they have something other groups aren't teaching.. violence.

Age : 52 Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 40 Location : England

Great result for him! Fair play to him for stepping up to the mark.

But I'm missing the point, what has he shown if the Organisers are warning about heavy contact (?) and his opponents are not expecting or training for unbridled ferocity?

Surely that's like putting an F1 car in an F3 race? You win, but?

"I'd put any of the regulars from that group into a competition like that, they have something other groups aren't teaching.. violence."

Want a truer test?

Stick him in K1, the BKK Knockdown Tournament, or better still the Sabaki Challenge.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6c_nz-VLCKw

I'm interested as to how he'd go against 'sport' fighters that have copious amounts of skill AND a large dose of simmering violence combined.

What's my point? Let's get away from labels and accept that SOME RBSD practitioners can do well in the sporting arena, but equally SOME sportsmen can ALSO do well in the street. It really is down to the individual, as your lad here proved and again I congratulate him, not to the intrinsic superiority of any given training method.

To imply or even worse attempt to 'prove' that sport competitors can't do it for real (although in the case quoted it does look that way - typical students - probably out on the town instead of training) makes no more sense than implying Olympic Weightlifting is so specific its practioners would be unable to load boxes ....

Gary

Subject: Re: Sport and Fighting Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:46 am

I guess it's swings and roundabouts, on the sports front all participants should have a level playing field, that's the difference between sport and reality, I remember many years ago Alfie Lewis a sport karate champion facing a murder charge because his sporting prowess allowed him to win a real fight.

Good on the lad for winning the competition, hopefully he will develop his skills so that he continues to win without being yellow/red carded.

Alan

Subject: Re: Sport and Fighting Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:38 pm

Hi Chris,
Very nice buddy, very nice...

In regards to the points you made which were contributing factors to your friend's victories, I'm generally on the same wavelength as Gary, who wrote:

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

Guys.

Don't think I was making an absolute statement, or even that I considered this some kind of proof that "sport" is inferior to "real" combat (whatever that means!) Very Happy

You only have to look at some of the competitive sporting combat athletes to know that would be a ridiculous claim or assertion.

I was making a broad comment on the differences in this instance and THIS particular type of sporting competition.. as well as possibly drawing some broad comparisons with how competition can differ from violence outside of the sporting arena.

The only absolute comment I would make is that of mindset. When one party is prepared for violence and the other is less so than the end result will always be the same. It's the one who wants it most who gets it most. I'd take the person with that mental training and those attributes against someone who hasn't developed that mindset any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

A lot of the guys in this comp had trained for years. What they hadn't done is train the full spectrum of attributes required for success. They were competing within a narrowly defined set of training standards and as such I have to agree with the comments above that it is all about training methodology. Regardless of school, style or system if you aren't training violence then you aren't training to succeed in any contest.

Age : 52 Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 40 Location : England

Hi Chris -

Absolutely agree. Where skill is similar, will wins every time.

But ..... Without trying to just swap stories, I sometimes see a different side.

One example: I had a bloke drop by to training some weeks ago. Fat, obviously out of shape, but wearing combat trousers and a T shirt boldly advertising his chosen system. He watched for a while, took a call on his mobile. Watched a bit more then started throwing in sarcastic comments.

At this point I got fed up and asked him to please refrain from disturbing the training. If he had questions, perhaps he'd like to ask them in private or after the class? He asked me to "step outside" so I just thought fine, handed over to one of the other instructors and followed him outside, getting ready to rip into him - verbally, or physically if he preferred.

He proceeded to ask a few questions, but cut straight across every answer to tell me where I was going wrong, and that karate would never work in situation x, y & z, but that the training he did at (name & system deleted) works better because etc etc. His final comment was the clincher, "It's all up here mate" tapping his pudgy fingers to his sweaty forehead "that's where it counts, not all this prancing about" I smiled and offered to let him demonstrate on me. At that, he wondered off down the corridor muttering he had to "pick the wife up"

Lucky girl ...

My point? No system can guarantee to churn out winners every time. There are sport fighters that can't actually fight but there's also a fair few fat blokes pretending they're Rambo!

Gary

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

Hi Gary,

Here is where I think we agree.

I don't really care what somebody trains, I am far more interested in HOW they are training. It's one of my personal bugbears when anyone makes comment on a specific school of training without having experienced that training. Go along and participate, gather the necessary information and then make a judgement on whether the training is suitable for your needs. I'll steal from anyone if its good material. Smile

What I do believe is that if you approach a violent situation with a "sporting" mindset then you are lacking something in your training. Our guy above prevailed because he brought violence into a bout and simply outgunned those who were less prepared to deal with that violence. I find that strange in a contact kickboxing competition where application of violence is the key to success. Also, this was a national competition with each university represented so the pool of competitors wasn't exactly shallow. There should have been someone in there more than capable of handling him but there wasn't.

That tells me that either he is a prodigy (which he isn't) or that there are a LOT of people out there who think they are training for contact/combat sports and in reality they are not. Hell, there are a million "RBSD" jokers doing the same thing and wearing their cammo y-fronts till they are thread-bear living out some secret squirrel fantasy. I find them just as lacking in correct training methodology, if not more so. At least the people in these contests are putting themselves on the line. Kudos to them and bags of respect.

cheers
Chris

Age : 52 Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 40 Location : England

Spot on Chris

Congratulations to him.

Anyone who steps up for full-contact (whichever system) deserves respect.

Gary

Subject: Re: Sport and Fighting Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:34 am

Hi Chris,
You wrote:

Joined : 08 Nov 2007 Posts : 10

Chris,

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

Hi my usual suspect mate. Very Happy

As I understand it, there were certain target areas and techniuques which were not allowed under the rules of the comp. Our guy was new to the arena so had to learn this as he went.

No kickboxing training and no other competition expereince meant he was on a steep learning curve.

cheers
Chris

Age : 52 Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 40 Location : England

Hi Chris,

I must admit when I first read this I thought you were just taking a side-swipe at sports V reality training ....

Reading it again, I think you've got a strong point here. In my own case, I was technically sound but never got past the quarter finals of the BKK Tournament (1976 - 1980) Painful lessons, as in Knockdown even if you win you take punishment, but if you're losing it's not at all pleasant.

The year I won it (1981 - God, that's a lifetime ago) I surprised a lot of people as I'd never really had the killer instinct required to explode into opponents. I was far too cautious (is that another word for nervous?) and trying to win with style rather than aggression. So, what made the difference? In my build-up training I had gone to Sweden to train with Brian Fitkin. He was probably the best European Kyokushin fighter of his day and so I found myself getting up off the floor most of the time. Eventually, something clicked inside and I just realised, almost as a divine revelation, that if I didn't stop being polite and get stuck in I was simply on a hiding to nothing.

Result, a new attitude and 1st place.

In many areas of life the 'Nature or Nurture' discussion comes up. This is perhaps as relevant to combat ferocity as in any other field of endeavour. Your lad has got it and we all need it! Some have a headstart and have got it naturally, for others, training right can help them access it. I found once I discovered it's far better to be the dog than the lamp-post, it also helped in all areas of life.

This is an area of training we can all agree on. You need a strong fighting spirit. The way we get there may differ, but without it, it's always going to get painful.

Gary

Age : 52 Joined : 07 Jan 2008 Posts : 40 Location : England

As a follow-up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkcVrd4omTU

I have no doubt in my mind these fighters can make things work for real!

Gary