The TOP 5 Heavyweight Boxing Champions

Subject: The TOP 5 Heavyweight Boxing Champions Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:42 pm

Hi Jeff, Rusty, and Vic,
Let's pick up where we left off...

To give others the context, here are the previous posts from the "Targets" thread on John's forum.

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Lito
Hi Jeff,
I was a bit overzealous in my proclamation that Tyson could have been the best ever. I agree with you that a prime George Foreman and Larry Holmes would have beaten him. I disagree with you though on Jersey Joe Walcott. I think Tyson would have taken him out. Now a bout between a prime Tyson and a prime Marciano would've been an interesting one. I think that Marciano (who was among the most mentally strong fighters of all-time) would have somehow prevailed in a hard fought battle.

Now, since we've deviated from the topic so much, who do you think was the best ever heavyweight boxer? My pick is a prime 1964-1967 Muhammad Ali. I think the '64-'67 Ali would beat anyone from any era. As far as number two on down, well, it depends on my mood and recollections at the moment. Rolling Eyes Right now, I'd say a young, prime Larry Holmes would be right up there. I think he would've have been appreciated more if he hadn't followed in Ali's footsteps. I think the prime Holmes had the best jab ever...

Take Care,
Lito
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Jeff Menapace
Hmmmm....yeah...I'd have to agree Lito. A before the war Ali (Clay) was AWESOME.

He did everything wrong and it worked so right for him.
-Held his hands low
-Never went to the body
-Leaned away from punches

Of course he was able to do this because of his amazing attributes and as he aged he had to adopt different strategies (hence the rope a dope) not to mention he probably had one of the best chins in HW history.

As far as number two goes? Wow, way to close to call. Holmes is right up there as is Joe Louis and Jack Johnson.

I want to put Marciano in there because I absolutely LOVE the guy, but he is a great example of a fighter who came along at just the right time. Don't get me wrong, his work ethic and mental toughness was second to none, but his competition was lacking. The great fighters he did beat were well past there primes and still gave him a lot of trouble (Walcott, Charles, Moore. I won't mention the geriatric Louis he fought)

But make no mistake, the Brockton Blockbuster could BOMB. His one punch KO of Walcott (in their first fight) might be the greatest in the history of HW boxing.
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Rusty Shackleford
I'm not a real big Ali fan. He was essentially knocked out by Henry Cooper and it was only through Dundee's chicanery that Clay survived. I'd agree that he had a spectacular chin. One that he ended up relying on more and more as his career progressed. One only need watch the Frazier, Norton, and Shavers fights to understand how time could have been so cruel to Ali.
I think his prime was relatively short lived. I give him high marks for his undying will and his unwavering belief in himself. Unfortunately Ali was brash, arrogant, and mean spirited. He belittled Joe Louis and knocked Marciano's rug off every chance he got and his verbal berating of Frazier and Patterson was unmerciful.

This is the way I'd rank them.

1. Joe Louis, Mike Tyson... a two way tie for these two technically brilliant sluggers.
2. George Foreman...That 70's version, the one with hair.
3. Larry Holmes...Great jab, lousy personality.
4. Rocky Marciano... At 185, quite likely the greatest crusierweight for all eternity.
5. Jack Johnson...Gold teeth and white girls, Flava Flave's alter ego.
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Jeff Menapace
He was essentially knocked out by Henry Cooper and it was only through Dundee's chicanery that Clay survived.

Haha, I was waiting for someone to mention that.

Jack Johnson...Gold teeth and white girls, Flava Flave's alter ego.

LOL. Nice.

Shocked you put Tyson so high Rusty. Care to elaborate? Do you really feel he could have beat a prime Foreman or Holmes?
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Rusty Shackleford
I don't think he'd have gotten by Foreman, but I do think he'd have still landed that overhand right on Holmes. Cus had always felt that Holmes was susceptible to the overhand right and had told Tyson to throw it with bad intentions on his way in. They worked on it specifically for that fight. If you look back at Holmes career you'll see a recurring theme. Kevin Issac, Reynaldo Snipes, Earnie Shavers, and finally Mike Tyson all exploited the overhand right during their bouts.
No doubt Tyson's prime was brief, but in his prime I can only think of three guys that could have gotten by him.

1. George Foreman
2. Sonny Liston
3. Earnie Shavers

I won't make any excuses for Tyson's character. He made sure that everyone hated him. For that, he'll have to commiserate with Jake Lamotta. Never the less, during his prime Tyson was a technical genius and his impact on Boxing was profound.
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Vic
I have a hard time ranking Ali up in the top 5. He did have the greatest chin and will though. The fight with Forman was a joke. Forman fought with food poisoning and the ring was fixed to help Ali with his rope a dope. Besides Ali didn't ko him, Forman gassed out and pretty much fell down. Anyway my top heavys.
1. Joe Lewis
2. Tyson
3. Holmes
4. Forman
5. Dempsey (not really but he is one of my favorites)
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Jeff Menapace
Cus had always felt that Holmes was susceptible to the overhand right and had told Tyson to throw it with bad intentions on his way in. They worked on it specifically for that fight.

Uh...Cus had been dead 3 years by the time they fought. I assume you meant his other trainers?

Liston and SHAVERS (??) Liston I can maybe see because of his awesome jab and power, but Shavers? What do you feel he had other than a deadly right hand that would have stopped Tyson?
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Rusty Shackleford
Jeff.

You're right about Cus having assumed room tempature by that time. He did however stress the overhand right to Tyson during his march to the title. I either read this story in an old Ring or possibly heard it on ESPN's Ringside retrospective of Mike Tyson. I do recall they worked specifically on it because it was a fight they envisioned happening.

Earnie was not a one way street. His left hook was vicious, just ask Ron Lyle. I always thought Shavers would have been a champion, had he not come up during the golden age of Heavyweights. Earnie was all heart, not inclined to bottle out when he got his chance. And if there was ever a Heavyweight that could change the complexion of a fight with a single stroke from either hand, it was "The Acorn."
Anytime you've got a gunslinger with that kind of prodigious power that's prepared to go out on his shield... well, flip a coin.
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Jeff Menapace
Maybe I've just got a bit of a bad taste in my mouth because Tex Cobb beat him. But then again, a 2 x 4 over Cobb's head couldn't knock him down LOL

I must admit though, I never saw the Lyle fight with Shavers. In fact the only Shavers fights I saw were Holmes (when he dropped Holmes with that killer right) Ali, and the Cobb fight. Maybe I'll do some Youtube digging.

Now speaking of Lyle, I'm SURE you've seen Foreman's epic battle with him. Now THAT was the HW version of Hagler/Hearns!!!
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Rusty Shackleford
Yeah, Cobb got him. For that matter Lyle got him too. But they both had to walk through a minefield to do so. Frazier and Foreman both avoided him like the plague.
I've got that Foreman vs Lyle bout on VHS. What a classic that one was.

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Take Care,
Lito
_________________
The essence of true love is purposeful effort.

True happiness is attained through fidelity to a worthy purpose.

Winners take chances and perceive pressure as a privilege.

Whatever you believe, it's true.

Subject: Re: The TOP 5 Heavyweight Boxing Champions Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:26 pm

Hi Gents,
Okay, here's my top 5 heavyweights (when they were in their prime)...

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Larry Holmes
3. George Foreman
4. Joe Louis
5. Rocky Marciano

Ah, here's the rest to round out my top 10 (couldn't help myself Wink

)

6. Mike Tyson
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Gene Tunney
9. Jack Johnson
10. Joe Frazier/Lennox Lewis/Earnie Shavers (ah, take your pick; I can't make up my mind on #10 Rolling Eyes

)

I would've rank Tyson higher if he had a stronger mind and heart.

Regarding Foreman vs Lyle, that fight was indeed a classic. It showed that Foreman had heart and then some.

Deviating yet again (but not too much this time Wink

), what do you guys think about the upcoming Cotto vs Margarito fight ? I'm really excited about this fight! Both are at the top of their game right now. Man, it's a hard one for me to call as I like 'em both. But if I had to put money down, I'd probably go with Margarito. Did you guys see his last two fights where he annihilated Johnson and Cintron (again)? He looked absolutely awesome in those fights! And with his frame of mind and fight strategy altered for the better after his loss to Williams (who I think Margarito would beat now), it's gonna take a perfect Cotto to beat him.

Anyway, it's great having other boxing afficionados here! While MMA and K-1 are great, I'll always be a dye-in-the-wool boxing fan...

Take Care,
Lito
_________________
The essence of true love is purposeful effort.

True happiness is attained through fidelity to a worthy purpose.

Winners take chances and perceive pressure as a privilege.

Whatever you believe, it's true.

Admin Joined : 13 Aug 2007 Posts : 177

I don't know Rusty. I just watched Jerry Quarry's 1 round KO of Shavers. I'll admit Quarry was great (Foreman said he was the best HW who never became champ) but I see Tyson as a much faster, more powerful Quarry with the same brawling style. I would take Tyson 9 times out of 10.

Jeff

Admin Joined : 16 Aug 2007 Posts : 232

I can't disagree with your top ten heavyweight choices Lito. Those guys are definitely the cream of the crop from my perspective also.

I think we could talk about their relative positions within the top ten but hell, all the those guys were great.

How about Lennox maybe moving up a little. He was a tremendous heavyweight who I think sufferred from a lack of great competition. I'm not sure how he would have made out in the 70's and 80's heavyweight heyday but I would have absolutely loved to see him give it a go.

One thing that made the top ten great was the undoubted class of their opponents. Two names I'd throw in from left field would be a prime Evander Holyfield and Archie Moore. Just cos both had fantastic skill, both were amazingly dedicated and both battled a generation of legends. (Hell, in Moore's case he battled TWO generation of legends!) Plus, they had hearts as big and deep as oceans which I always admire.

Joined : 08 Apr 2008 Posts : 27 Location : Riverside ,CA

I think Cotto will win the fight. Margarito is very good and it will be very interesting to see. I think Margarito has better boxing skills but Cottos power and the way he goes to the body will decide the fight.

I'm not much of a Lewis fan. I don't think he would have ever made it to the top if he was fighting in the 70s.

Ernie Shavers should get a little more due. It says allot when 3 of some of the greatest fighters (Foreman, Frazer, and Tyson) all ducked him. It was just plain fun watching him though his devastating punches. Perhaps the hardest hitting heavyweight of all time. Closely followed by Quarry.

Joined : 07 Nov 2007 Posts : 84

Jeff,

I can't recall ever seeing Quarry off his feet. His chin was in a class all it's own. Just like Ali, Quarry would pay the price later in life. Jerry lived out his final years staying with his brother out in Hemet, California. His brother would find Jerry running down the sidewalk, and when asked what he was doing, Jerry would say he had to get to the auditorium for the imagined bout he had that night.
In my mind, Shavers was the ultimate gunslinger. Although Tyson's chin was quite sturdy, it was not made of the same material as men like Ali, Chuvalo, Quarry, or Cobb. I really believe that during one of those exchanges, Shavers could very well have landed something titanic on Tyson's chin. I see this fight as being a wild shootout while it lasted.